Conversation On Creation (with Scriptural References from Yoga Vasista and Gaudapada Kaarika)
JK :
QUOTE
Maj. Chadwick asked Sri Bhagavan one night: The world is said to become manifest after the mind becomes manifest. There is no mind when I sleep. Is the world not existent to others at that time? Does it not show that the world is the product of a universal mind? How then shall we say that the world is not material but only dream-like?
M (Sri Ramana Maharshi).: The world does not tell you that it is of the individual mind or of the universal mind. It is only the individual mind that sees the world. When this mind disappears the world also disappears.
UNQUOTE
JK : : This question by Chadwick, is something I have been having in the back of my mind for a while. RM's response is not quite clear to me. Any other references from the scriptures on this topic?
EXT : The idea that the world we see in Waking, Dream - is of someone else or our own making etc...are theories to explain the inexplicable. Even in Sruti - the ideas of Creation etc are discussed only as an alambhanam to ensure we don't get sidetracked by the world-experience and instead we strive to arrive at it's source - namely Brahman.
EXT : This type of approach is replete in Sastram- be it Sruti (Upanisads) or Smriti (Yoga Vasista Ramayanam, Bhagavatham etc).
EXT : This is called Adhyaropa Apavada Nyaya - intentional superimposition and subsequent retraction - all to bring our attention back to the FACT - that our essential nature is pure, unlimited consciousness - kevalananda svarupah
EXT : So Sri Bhagavan, like Sri Sankara - does not attach too much importance to whether the world we experience or the world "others experience", while we are in DeepSleep - is product of our or Brahma's imagination etc.....
EXT : In Yoga Vasista Ramayana - I would suggest you study - Leela Upaakhyaanam - it shall put this question to rest.
EXT : It's an awesome multiverse construct - seen as bubbles in consciousness (figuratively speaking).
EXT : After several mind-being narratives, and non-causal descriptions of time-space being nothing more than mental constructs, which manifest out of the ignorace of one's infinite nature - Sri Vasista eventually concludes the Leela Upaakshyanam - saying as follows : -
QUOTE
Prince, I have told you this story in order to remove your error of the phenomenal world. Remember this tale of Leela and renounce your misconception of the gross material world. The substantiality of phenomena is a nothing by itself.
pṛthvyādirahitenedaṃ cidbhāsaiva svayaṃbhuvā |
sādhitaṃ yadi siddhena tataḥ svātmani sādhitam || 4 ||
When the self-born Brahma created the world from nothing, and without the aid of any (other real) material; it is plain that there was an eternal void (i.e. absence of something other than Brahman).
संविद्यथा या यतते तथा सैव व्यवस्थिता ।
विसृष्टा सृष्टिविन्नद्यां यावद्यत्नान्न रोधिता ॥ ५ ॥
saṃvidyathā yā yatate tathā saiva vyavasthitā |
visṛṣṭā sṛṣṭivinnadyāṃ yāvadyatnānna rodhitā || 5 ||
The same creative soul, has spread the seeds of its consciousness in the stream of creation, and these produce the images as they incessantly appear to us, unless we take the pains to repress them (i.e. see them as nothing apart from consciousness which is indicated by I)
cidākāśāvabhāso'yaṃ jagadityavabudhyate |
cidvyomnyevātmani svacche paramāṇukaṇaṃ prati || 6 ||
The appearance of the world, is but a perspective of the sphere of divine intellect; and contained in the small space of human intellect within the soul; as in a transparent particle of sand.
This entire whole that is visible to the eye is only false appearance, like magic. There is no truth or substance in a magic show.
UNQUOTE
EXT : Some of the traditional teachers have taught that this is a cosmic dream (Eka Jiva Vaada), some have said this universe is a bubble born out of a Jiva's sankalpa, on top of the cosmic dream (dream within a dream - like in Leela Upakhyanam), some lower level dreams can dissolve and we can wake to higher level dreams - but all these are pointless journeys - samsara !
The True escape constitutes the recognition of our infinite nature here and now - irrespective of the Upadhis. This conviction since it does not arise in the mind of Jiva - he takes recourse to theories of creation - which enable him to practise Karma Yoga to purify himself/herself - and eventually recognize one's Svarupam here and now !
EXT : Gaudapada Kaarika (excerpts below)
QUOTE
II Prakarana
28 The knowers of creation call It creation; the knowers of dissolution, dissolution; and the knowers of preservation, preservation. In truth, all such ideas are always imagined in Atman.
29 The disciple grasps only that idea which is presented to him by his teacher. Atman assumes the form of what is taught and thus protects the disciple. Absorbed in that idea, he realizes it as Atman.
30 Atman, though non—separate from all these ideas, appears to be separate. He who truly knows this interprets, without any fear, the meaning of the Vedas.
31 As dreams, illusions and castles in the air are viewed, so is the tangible universe viewed by the wise, well versed in Vedanta.
na nirodho na cotpattirna baddho na ca sādhakaḥ |
na mumukṣurna vai mukta ityeṣā paramārthatā || 32 ||
32 There is neither dissolution nor creation, none in bondage and none practicing disciplines. There is none seeking Liberation and none liberated. This is the absolute truth
EXT : Further in Gaudapada Kaarika
III Prakarana
14 The separateness of the jiva and Atman, which has been declared in the earlier section of the Upanishads, dealing with the creation, is figurative...
15 The scriptural statements regarding the creation, using the examples of earth, iron and sparks, are for the purpose of clarifying the mind. Multiplicity does not really exist in any manner.
16 There are three stages of life, corresponding to the threefold understanding of men: inferior, mediocre and superior. Scripture, out of compassion, has taught this discipline for the benefit of the unenlightened.
17 The dualists, firmly clinging to their conclusions, contradict one another. The non—dualists find no conflict with them.
advaitaṃ paramārtho hi dvaitaṃ tadbheda ucyate |
teṣām ubhayathā dvaitaṃ tenāyaṃ na viruddhyate || 18 ||
18. As non-duality is the ultimate Reality, therefore duality is said to be its effect (Kārya or Bheda). The dualists perceive duality either way (i.e., both in the Absolute and in the phenomena). Therefore the non-dual position does not conflict with the dualist’s position.
svasthaṃ śāntaṃ sanirvāṇamakathyaṃ sukhamuttamam |
ajamajena jñeyena sarvajñaṃ paricakṣate || 47 ||
47 This Supreme Bliss abides in the Self. It is peace; it is Liberation; it is birthless
and cannot be described in words. It is called the omniscient Brahman, being one with the birthless Self, which is the true object of knowledge.
na kaścijjāyate jīvaḥ saṃbhavo'sya na vidyate |
etattaduttamaṃ satyaṃ yatra kiṃcinna jāyate || 48 ||
48. No Jīva is ever born. There does not exist any cause which can produce it. This is the highest Truth that nothing is ever born.
Shankara Bhashya (commentary)
All these ideas regarding the discipline of the mind, evolution resembling the creation of forms from iron and clay, as well as the ideas regarding devotional exercises, are given as means1 to the realisation of the nature of the Ultimate Reality. They have, in themselves, no meaning whatsoever. The2 truth regarding the Ultimate Reality is that no Jīva is ever born. The Jīva whom one knows as the agent and the enjoyer is not born in any way whatsoever. Therefore, no cause can ever exist which may produce the Ātman which is, by nature, unborn and non-dual. In other words, no Jīva can ever be born, as the cause which may produce it does not exist. Of all the (relative) truths described above as means (for the realisation of the Ultimate Reality), this alone is the Supreme Truth that nothing whatsoever is ever born in or of that Brahman which is of the nature of the Ultimate Reality.
Fourth Prakarana Verses on Ajati Vada
40 The unreal cannot have another unreality for its cause, nor can the real have the unreal for its cause. The real cannot be the cause of the real. And how utterly impossible it is for the real to be the cause of the unreal!
41 As a person in the waking state through false knowledge appears to handle objects, whose nature is inscrutable, as if they were real, so also, in dreams, he perceives, through false knowledge, objects whose existence is possible in the dream state alone.
42 Wise men teach causality only for the sake of those who, afraid of non—creation, assert the reality of external objects because they perceive such objects and also because they cling to various social and religious duties.
43 Those who, because of their fear of the truth of absolute non— creation and also because of their perception of external objects, deny ajati (non—creation) are not affected by the evil consequent on the belief in creation. This evil, if there is any, is insignificant.
44 As an elephant conjured up by a magician is taken to be real because it is perceived to exist and also because it answers to the behavior of a real elephant, so also external objects are taken to be real because they are perceived to exist and because one can deal with them.
45 It is Consciousness, Vijnana, alone that appears to be born or to move or to take the form of matter. But this Consciousness is really ever unborn, immovable and free from the traits of materiality; it is all peace and non—dual.
46 Thus the mind is never subject to birth. All beings, too, are free from birth. Those who know this do not fall into false knowledge.
55 As long as a person clings to the belief in causality, he will find cause producing
effect. But when this attachment to causality wears away, cause and effect become
non—existent.
56 As long as a person clings to the belief in causality, samsara will continue to
expand for him. But when this attachment to causality wears away, samsara
becomes non—existent.
57 The entire universe is created by false knowledge; therefore nothing in it is
eternal. Everything, again, as one with Ultimate Reality, is unborn; therefore there
is no such thing as destruction.
71 No jiva ever comes into existence. There exists no cause that can produce it.
The supreme truth is that nothing ever is born.
74 Atman is called birthless (aja) from the standpoint of false knowledge based upon imagination; in reality It is not even birthless. The unborn Atman is said to be born from the standpoint of the false knowledge cherished by other schools of thought.
75 People persistently hold to the idea of unreality i.e. duality. But such duality
does not exist. One who has realized the absence of duality is not born again, since
there remains no longer any cause for his birth.
80 The mind freed from attachment to all external objects and undistracted by fresh objects attains the state of immutability. The wise realize such a mind to be Brahman; It is undifferentiated, birthless and non—dual.
81 The birthless, dreamless and sleepless Reality reveals Itself by Itself; for this Dharma (Atman) by Its very nature is self— luminous.
82 The Lord (Atman) becomes easily hidden because of attachment to any single object and is revealed with great difficulty.
91 All Atmans (Dharmas) are to be known, by their very nature, to be beginningless and unattached like akasa. There is not the slightest variety in there in any way or at any time.
92 All jivas are, by their very nature, illumined from the very beginning. There can never be any doubt about their nature. He who,. having known this, rests without seeking further knowledge is alone capable of attaining Immortality.
93 The jivas, from the very beginning and by their very nature, are all peace, unborn and completely free. They are characterized by sameness and non—separateness. The unborn Atman is always established in sameness and purity.
94 Those who always wander in the realm of separateness cannot realize the purity of Atman. Their minds are inclined to differentiation and they assert the separateness of the Atmans. Therefore they are called narrow—minded.
95 They alone in this world are endowed with the highest wisdom who are firm in their conviction of the sameness and birthlessness of Atman. The ordinary man does not understand their way.
UNQUOTE
QUOTE
Maj. Chadwick asked Sri Bhagavan one night: The world is said to become manifest after the mind becomes manifest. There is no mind when I sleep. Is the world not existent to others at that time? Does it not show that the world is the product of a universal mind? How then shall we say that the world is not material but only dream-like?
M (Sri Ramana Maharshi).: The world does not tell you that it is of the individual mind or of the universal mind. It is only the individual mind that sees the world. When this mind disappears the world also disappears.
UNQUOTE
JK : : This question by Chadwick, is something I have been having in the back of my mind for a while. RM's response is not quite clear to me. Any other references from the scriptures on this topic?
EXT : The idea that the world we see in Waking, Dream - is of someone else or our own making etc...are theories to explain the inexplicable. Even in Sruti - the ideas of Creation etc are discussed only as an alambhanam to ensure we don't get sidetracked by the world-experience and instead we strive to arrive at it's source - namely Brahman.
EXT : This type of approach is replete in Sastram- be it Sruti (Upanisads) or Smriti (Yoga Vasista Ramayanam, Bhagavatham etc).
EXT : This is called Adhyaropa Apavada Nyaya - intentional superimposition and subsequent retraction - all to bring our attention back to the FACT - that our essential nature is pure, unlimited consciousness - kevalananda svarupah
EXT : So Sri Bhagavan, like Sri Sankara - does not attach too much importance to whether the world we experience or the world "others experience", while we are in DeepSleep - is product of our or Brahma's imagination etc.....
EXT : In Yoga Vasista Ramayana - I would suggest you study - Leela Upaakhyaanam - it shall put this question to rest.
EXT : It's an awesome multiverse construct - seen as bubbles in consciousness (figuratively speaking).
EXT : After several mind-being narratives, and non-causal descriptions of time-space being nothing more than mental constructs, which manifest out of the ignorace of one's infinite nature - Sri Vasista eventually concludes the Leela Upaakshyanam - saying as follows : -
QUOTE
Prince, I have told you this story in order to remove your error of the phenomenal world. Remember this tale of Leela and renounce your misconception of the gross material world. The substantiality of phenomena is a nothing by itself.
pṛthvyādirahitenedaṃ cidbhāsaiva svayaṃbhuvā |
sādhitaṃ yadi siddhena tataḥ svātmani sādhitam || 4 ||
When the self-born Brahma created the world from nothing, and without the aid of any (other real) material; it is plain that there was an eternal void (i.e. absence of something other than Brahman).
संविद्यथा या यतते तथा सैव व्यवस्थिता ।
विसृष्टा सृष्टिविन्नद्यां यावद्यत्नान्न रोधिता ॥ ५ ॥
saṃvidyathā yā yatate tathā saiva vyavasthitā |
visṛṣṭā sṛṣṭivinnadyāṃ yāvadyatnānna rodhitā || 5 ||
The same creative soul, has spread the seeds of its consciousness in the stream of creation, and these produce the images as they incessantly appear to us, unless we take the pains to repress them (i.e. see them as nothing apart from consciousness which is indicated by I)
cidākāśāvabhāso'yaṃ jagadityavabudhyate |
cidvyomnyevātmani svacche paramāṇukaṇaṃ prati || 6 ||
The appearance of the world, is but a perspective of the sphere of divine intellect; and contained in the small space of human intellect within the soul; as in a transparent particle of sand.
This entire whole that is visible to the eye is only false appearance, like magic. There is no truth or substance in a magic show.
UNQUOTE
EXT : Some of the traditional teachers have taught that this is a cosmic dream (Eka Jiva Vaada), some have said this universe is a bubble born out of a Jiva's sankalpa, on top of the cosmic dream (dream within a dream - like in Leela Upakhyanam), some lower level dreams can dissolve and we can wake to higher level dreams - but all these are pointless journeys - samsara !
The True escape constitutes the recognition of our infinite nature here and now - irrespective of the Upadhis. This conviction since it does not arise in the mind of Jiva - he takes recourse to theories of creation - which enable him to practise Karma Yoga to purify himself/herself - and eventually recognize one's Svarupam here and now !
EXT : Gaudapada Kaarika (excerpts below)
QUOTE
II Prakarana
28 The knowers of creation call It creation; the knowers of dissolution, dissolution; and the knowers of preservation, preservation. In truth, all such ideas are always imagined in Atman.
29 The disciple grasps only that idea which is presented to him by his teacher. Atman assumes the form of what is taught and thus protects the disciple. Absorbed in that idea, he realizes it as Atman.
30 Atman, though non—separate from all these ideas, appears to be separate. He who truly knows this interprets, without any fear, the meaning of the Vedas.
31 As dreams, illusions and castles in the air are viewed, so is the tangible universe viewed by the wise, well versed in Vedanta.
na nirodho na cotpattirna baddho na ca sādhakaḥ |
na mumukṣurna vai mukta ityeṣā paramārthatā || 32 ||
32 There is neither dissolution nor creation, none in bondage and none practicing disciplines. There is none seeking Liberation and none liberated. This is the absolute truth
EXT : Further in Gaudapada Kaarika
III Prakarana
14 The separateness of the jiva and Atman, which has been declared in the earlier section of the Upanishads, dealing with the creation, is figurative...
15 The scriptural statements regarding the creation, using the examples of earth, iron and sparks, are for the purpose of clarifying the mind. Multiplicity does not really exist in any manner.
16 There are three stages of life, corresponding to the threefold understanding of men: inferior, mediocre and superior. Scripture, out of compassion, has taught this discipline for the benefit of the unenlightened.
17 The dualists, firmly clinging to their conclusions, contradict one another. The non—dualists find no conflict with them.
advaitaṃ paramārtho hi dvaitaṃ tadbheda ucyate |
teṣām ubhayathā dvaitaṃ tenāyaṃ na viruddhyate || 18 ||
18. As non-duality is the ultimate Reality, therefore duality is said to be its effect (Kārya or Bheda). The dualists perceive duality either way (i.e., both in the Absolute and in the phenomena). Therefore the non-dual position does not conflict with the dualist’s position.
svasthaṃ śāntaṃ sanirvāṇamakathyaṃ sukhamuttamam |
ajamajena jñeyena sarvajñaṃ paricakṣate || 47 ||
47 This Supreme Bliss abides in the Self. It is peace; it is Liberation; it is birthless
and cannot be described in words. It is called the omniscient Brahman, being one with the birthless Self, which is the true object of knowledge.
na kaścijjāyate jīvaḥ saṃbhavo'sya na vidyate |
etattaduttamaṃ satyaṃ yatra kiṃcinna jāyate || 48 ||
48. No Jīva is ever born. There does not exist any cause which can produce it. This is the highest Truth that nothing is ever born.
Shankara Bhashya (commentary)
All these ideas regarding the discipline of the mind, evolution resembling the creation of forms from iron and clay, as well as the ideas regarding devotional exercises, are given as means1 to the realisation of the nature of the Ultimate Reality. They have, in themselves, no meaning whatsoever. The2 truth regarding the Ultimate Reality is that no Jīva is ever born. The Jīva whom one knows as the agent and the enjoyer is not born in any way whatsoever. Therefore, no cause can ever exist which may produce the Ātman which is, by nature, unborn and non-dual. In other words, no Jīva can ever be born, as the cause which may produce it does not exist. Of all the (relative) truths described above as means (for the realisation of the Ultimate Reality), this alone is the Supreme Truth that nothing whatsoever is ever born in or of that Brahman which is of the nature of the Ultimate Reality.
Fourth Prakarana Verses on Ajati Vada
40 The unreal cannot have another unreality for its cause, nor can the real have the unreal for its cause. The real cannot be the cause of the real. And how utterly impossible it is for the real to be the cause of the unreal!
41 As a person in the waking state through false knowledge appears to handle objects, whose nature is inscrutable, as if they were real, so also, in dreams, he perceives, through false knowledge, objects whose existence is possible in the dream state alone.
42 Wise men teach causality only for the sake of those who, afraid of non—creation, assert the reality of external objects because they perceive such objects and also because they cling to various social and religious duties.
43 Those who, because of their fear of the truth of absolute non— creation and also because of their perception of external objects, deny ajati (non—creation) are not affected by the evil consequent on the belief in creation. This evil, if there is any, is insignificant.
44 As an elephant conjured up by a magician is taken to be real because it is perceived to exist and also because it answers to the behavior of a real elephant, so also external objects are taken to be real because they are perceived to exist and because one can deal with them.
45 It is Consciousness, Vijnana, alone that appears to be born or to move or to take the form of matter. But this Consciousness is really ever unborn, immovable and free from the traits of materiality; it is all peace and non—dual.
46 Thus the mind is never subject to birth. All beings, too, are free from birth. Those who know this do not fall into false knowledge.
55 As long as a person clings to the belief in causality, he will find cause producing
effect. But when this attachment to causality wears away, cause and effect become
non—existent.
56 As long as a person clings to the belief in causality, samsara will continue to
expand for him. But when this attachment to causality wears away, samsara
becomes non—existent.
57 The entire universe is created by false knowledge; therefore nothing in it is
eternal. Everything, again, as one with Ultimate Reality, is unborn; therefore there
is no such thing as destruction.
71 No jiva ever comes into existence. There exists no cause that can produce it.
The supreme truth is that nothing ever is born.
74 Atman is called birthless (aja) from the standpoint of false knowledge based upon imagination; in reality It is not even birthless. The unborn Atman is said to be born from the standpoint of the false knowledge cherished by other schools of thought.
75 People persistently hold to the idea of unreality i.e. duality. But such duality
does not exist. One who has realized the absence of duality is not born again, since
there remains no longer any cause for his birth.
80 The mind freed from attachment to all external objects and undistracted by fresh objects attains the state of immutability. The wise realize such a mind to be Brahman; It is undifferentiated, birthless and non—dual.
81 The birthless, dreamless and sleepless Reality reveals Itself by Itself; for this Dharma (Atman) by Its very nature is self— luminous.
82 The Lord (Atman) becomes easily hidden because of attachment to any single object and is revealed with great difficulty.
91 All Atmans (Dharmas) are to be known, by their very nature, to be beginningless and unattached like akasa. There is not the slightest variety in there in any way or at any time.
92 All jivas are, by their very nature, illumined from the very beginning. There can never be any doubt about their nature. He who,. having known this, rests without seeking further knowledge is alone capable of attaining Immortality.
93 The jivas, from the very beginning and by their very nature, are all peace, unborn and completely free. They are characterized by sameness and non—separateness. The unborn Atman is always established in sameness and purity.
94 Those who always wander in the realm of separateness cannot realize the purity of Atman. Their minds are inclined to differentiation and they assert the separateness of the Atmans. Therefore they are called narrow—minded.
95 They alone in this world are endowed with the highest wisdom who are firm in their conviction of the sameness and birthlessness of Atman. The ordinary man does not understand their way.
UNQUOTE
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